[May 23, 10:26]Dob That seems to be the common consensus...that it's the best of the first three.
So we now have a quality "in sequence" trilogy -- Episodes 3,4 and 5.
[May 23, 12:06]Rspaight Yes, it's easily the best of the first three. It's probably even better on balance than Jedi (though the Luke/Vader arc in the last part of Jedi is some of the best stuff in the whole "saga").
I'm happy it's not as crushingly awful as Menace, or as embarrassingly inept as Clones. And yet, it could have been so much better.
Though Lucas is a fine plotter and a master visual artist, he's an awful *writer* and worse director of actors. We needed to *feel* the closeness of the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin in order for Anakin's betrayal have the weight it needed. That was completely absent. We needed to *feel* Anakin's obsessive need to *own* Padme (separation anxiety, anyone?) in order for his desperation to be tangible enough to explain his embrace of Palpatine. That was missing, too.
None of this is the fault of the plot (which is actually a remarkable piece of work across all six movies), or the actors (who are all capable). It's poor scripting and poor directing. Think about someone like David Lean (or Lucas' mentor Coppola) directing these movies. Sigh.
Despite all that, though, I enoyed Sith a lot. It's as good as it could have been, given its pedigree.
[May 23, 12:53]Luke [e-mail] I must say I find the story line fairly fascinating (if not a bit hard to follow at times), but as you say, there's really no weight to the relationships.
SPOILERS:
One thing which I thought was done pretty poorly (other than what's been previously mentioned) was the destruction of the Jedi. I thought Mace Windu's exit was good, but the rest just seemed to be "oh, shot in the back, that's it". For everything about how the Jedi could channel the force, it seems they went out way too quickly and easily.
I would have also liked to have seen some type of explanation about *why* Anakin/Vader needs the helmet. He's there breathing on the table, is he not?
[May 23, 18:40]Moneypenny Yesterday, Erin and I watched Ep. 2, then went to the theater and watcehd Ep. 3, then came home and watched Eps. 4 & 5. I feel like never watching Star Wars again. Seriously, I love the shit, but it drags you down after a bit.
[May 23, 19:02]anonymous "I would have also liked to have seen some type of explanation about *why* Anakin/Vader needs the helmet. He's there breathing on the table, is he not?"
I figured he was on some sort of life support at that point, until they turned on the suit.
One of the more interesting theories I've heard (this was many years ago, pre-prequels, and I don't know if it has any relation to Lucas-canon or not) is that the only thing keeping Anakin alive after his duel with Obi-Wan was his sheer hate channeled through the Dark Side. Thus, once he left the Dark Side, he was doomed. Hence, the "nothing can stop that now" line when Luke tells him he doesn't have to die.
[May 23, 21:00]beatlesfan03 [e-mail] My take on the whole Jedi slaughter is this, they simply were caught off guard.
Initially, they were each involved in their own situation with backing of the Clone troops only to have the troops turn in battle when the order came down.
Also, it might boil down to the fact that the other Jedi just didn't channel the force as well as Kenobi and Yoda. If I recall correctly, the Jedi's were getting their asses pounded at the end of the second one before Windu, Kenobi and Yoda showed up. I never bothered to see that one again.
As for Vader breathing, a good point was brought up. There's also a brief scene in "Empire" when Vader is shown from behind without his mask on. Perhaps when he rediscovered the light side, he realized his fate was sealed and no matter what Luke did, he wasn't going to survive so why not take the mask off?
Sheesh, I spend too much time thinking about this crap.
[May 24, 12:39]Rspaight There was a book out at one point called "Shadows of the Empire" that dealt with the period of time between Empire and Jedi -- Lucasfilm put a *huge* promo push behind it (they made action figures and video games and everything) so it has a little more "authenticity" to it then most of the books. In it, there's a running sub-sub-plot about Vader in that chamber with his mask off. Apparently (if I'm remembering this right), he was attempting to use the Force to breathe on his own, and had managed to go a couple of minutes, at most.
[May 23, 10:26] Dob
That seems to be the common consensus...that it's the best of the first three.
So we now have a quality "in sequence" trilogy -- Episodes 3,4 and 5.
[May 23, 12:06] Rspaight
Yes, it's easily the best of the first three. It's probably even better on balance than Jedi (though the Luke/Vader arc in the last part of Jedi is some of the best stuff in the whole "saga").
I'm happy it's not as crushingly awful as Menace, or as embarrassingly inept as Clones. And yet, it could have been so much better.
Though Lucas is a fine plotter and a master visual artist, he's an awful *writer* and worse director of actors. We needed to *feel* the closeness of the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin in order for Anakin's betrayal have the weight it needed. That was completely absent. We needed to *feel* Anakin's obsessive need to *own* Padme (separation anxiety, anyone?) in order for his desperation to be tangible enough to explain his embrace of Palpatine. That was missing, too.
None of this is the fault of the plot (which is actually a remarkable piece of work across all six movies), or the actors (who are all capable). It's poor scripting and poor directing. Think about someone like David Lean (or Lucas' mentor Coppola) directing these movies. Sigh.
Despite all that, though, I enoyed Sith a lot. It's as good as it could have been, given its pedigree.
[May 23, 12:53] Luke [e-mail]
I must say I find the story line fairly fascinating (if not a bit hard to follow at times), but as you say, there's really no weight to the relationships.
SPOILERS:
One thing which I thought was done pretty poorly (other than what's been previously mentioned) was the destruction of the Jedi. I thought Mace Windu's exit was good, but the rest just seemed to be "oh, shot in the back, that's it". For everything about how the Jedi could channel the force, it seems they went out way too quickly and easily.
I would have also liked to have seen some type of explanation about *why* Anakin/Vader needs the helmet. He's there breathing on the table, is he not?
[May 23, 18:40] Moneypenny
Yesterday, Erin and I watched Ep. 2, then went to the theater and watcehd Ep. 3, then came home and watched Eps. 4 & 5. I feel like never watching Star Wars again. Seriously, I love the shit, but it drags you down after a bit.
[May 23, 19:02] anonymous
"I would have also liked to have seen some type of explanation about *why* Anakin/Vader needs the helmet. He's there breathing on the table, is he not?"
I figured he was on some sort of life support at that point, until they turned on the suit.
One of the more interesting theories I've heard (this was many years ago, pre-prequels, and I don't know if it has any relation to Lucas-canon or not) is that the only thing keeping Anakin alive after his duel with Obi-Wan was his sheer hate channeled through the Dark Side. Thus, once he left the Dark Side, he was doomed. Hence, the "nothing can stop that now" line when Luke tells him he doesn't have to die.
[May 23, 21:00] beatlesfan03 [e-mail]
My take on the whole Jedi slaughter is this, they simply were caught off guard.
Initially, they were each involved in their own situation with backing of the Clone troops only to have the troops turn in battle when the order came down.
Also, it might boil down to the fact that the other Jedi just didn't channel the force as well as Kenobi and Yoda. If I recall correctly, the Jedi's were getting their asses pounded at the end of the second one before Windu, Kenobi and Yoda showed up. I never bothered to see that one again.
As for Vader breathing, a good point was brought up. There's also a brief scene in "Empire" when Vader is shown from behind without his mask on. Perhaps when he rediscovered the light side, he realized his fate was sealed and no matter what Luke did, he wasn't going to survive so why not take the mask off?
Sheesh, I spend too much time thinking about this crap.
[May 24, 12:39] Rspaight
There was a book out at one point called "Shadows of the Empire" that dealt with the period of time between Empire and Jedi -- Lucasfilm put a *huge* promo push behind it (they made action figures and video games and everything) so it has a little more "authenticity" to it then most of the books. In it, there's a running sub-sub-plot about Vader in that chamber with his mask off. Apparently (if I'm remembering this right), he was attempting to use the Force to breathe on his own, and had managed to go a couple of minutes, at most.