[Mar 25, 09:39]anonymous While I don't agree with going to war, you can't tell thousands of military men, women and families that they are fighting and dying for fictitious reasons. It's offensive.
[Mar 25, 09:42]Mark I think that brining up the election result subject was right up his alley - oviously partisan rhetoric. I think he hurt his carrer. What does this talk have to do with winning an Oscar? Just to babble his political views? He certainly has a "For am I not holier than thou?" attitude.
[Mar 25, 09:44]Luke [e-mail] Why not? It wasn't their decision to invade Iraq.
The whole point is that those people shouldn't have to be risking their lives. Bush has put these folks in harm's way when he didn't have to. How is it not supporting the troops by wanting them home with their loved ones?
[Mar 25, 10:13]anonymous sure they shouldn't be, but they are and support the fact that they are there so you don't have to be. People can be against the war and talk until their blue in the face but the point is we are there and we can't pull out now. And I'm with Mark, Moore picked a bad time to make a speech like that.
[Mar 25, 10:15]anonymous I like the Time article. thanks for posting it luke.
[Mar 26, 15:28]Joe [e-mail] I, too, believe that Michael Moore's comment was made at an inappropriate time. He's not receiving an oscar for his political views, it is for his filmmaking. I'd also like to take the time to quote something from Jo Dee Messina
"Hello Friends,
My opinion of celebrity statements has been a common question in the last week. Do things I say mean more or less than everyone else's words? For those of you wondering my answer - I can only speak for myself when I say that my words hold as much or as little water as they would if being spoken by your neighbor.
With this in mind I want to say, the president has just addressed the country about the war on Iraq. It is a scary situation that we're all in. I ask you, as a friend and neighbor, whether you believe in this war or not - to please keep the soldiers that are fighting overseas in your thoughts and prayers. I ask that you pray for them and their families. Also, try to keep your focus on holding our country together and not on tearing it apart from within. No matter how we got here, we are here now ...
Remember to be kind, patient and helpful to one another. Most importantly remember to keep the faith.
Love,
Jo Dee"
It is indeed a good thing to want the troops safe and home with their families. But Supporting your troops is more than that. Supporting your troops is supporting them wherever they are. You may dislike them being far away, you may dislike the reason they are there, and you may dislike the person who made them go. Yet, stand behind them. Let them know that their efforts are not for naught. That there are reasons that our country is worth fighting for and something worth coming home to. Luke, I know that your family doesn't have a military background, but I'm speaking from a family that does. I've seen Vietnam Veterans shunned and ostracized for fighting for their country when people didn't think it was their place to fight, yet they fought because it was their sworn duty and their aim was to make a beneficial difference on the lives of those in Vietnam.
[Mar 26, 15:42]Luke [e-mail] My family doesn't have a military background? How would you know? My dad served during Vietnam. He lost one of his lungs (and not to mention a good chunk of his life in the hospital) because of it. He's probably as anti-war as I am, albeit not as vocal. Several of my father's elders served in the Navy as well.
A good friend is currently in the reserves. Luckily he hasn't been called up, and we all hope that day doesn't come. Would I support the war any more if he got called up? Not a bit. Would I support him and his family? You bet.
Get off your high horse, Joe. Supporting a war and supporting the troops that serve in that war are two totally different things. While the line between the two unfortunately got blurred during Vietnam, that doesn't mean the same has to be true today.
[Mar 26, 17:19]Moneypenny [e-mail] 1. I find it interesting that a site as small and unassuming as Luke's in now crawling with trolls.
2. As far as Moore goes, I think he went a bit too over-the-top in presenting his message, and it subsequently alienated any even slightly left-leaning members of the audience. That is too bad.
3. I now abhor the phrase "shock and awe".
4. Why everyone who is against the war must constantly shout "I am against the war but behind our troops" is beyond me. I live in (arguably) the most liberal place in the country and I have yet to hear one person even slightly hint that they are against our troops, i.e., for the failure and death of the American armed forces. I'm sure they exist out there, but the fact that a moderate citizen must spell it out in exactly those terms in order to not be branded a "traitor" or "unpatriotic" is a bit scary.
5. Post-war Iraq has already been sold to American interests. What is more apalling is that the typical government bidding process was not followed since we are in "extraordinary circumstances". Hence, most if not all contracts went to the largest contributors to the GOP. Haliburton has been granted a piece of the $2 billion pie, as well as others.
6. Public opinion of the war has slid dramatically since the initial bombing phase. As soon as American soldiers started dieing, the American populace realized this a real war with real casualties. I believe when I looked at the figures this morning, the percentage of people who "believe the war is going very well" fell from 71% to 38%. Interestingly enough, the percentage who believe "military force was the right decision" have about stayed steady dropping only from 78% to 74%. I would be interested in seeing the second percetange move over time if the war starts to drag longer, and the coalition forces are forced to fight street to street in Baghdad. See poll details.
[Mar 26, 20:33]Mark So if we have an different opinion, we are trolls?
[Mar 26, 20:55]Ryan S. Hey, Luke -- said I'd stop by.
I'm intrigued as well that your little corner of the Web has become so contentious. People certainly have opinions on this, don't they?
For what it's worth, I don't understand this "once the war starts, you're not allowed to oppose it" view. How is it "unpatriotic" to oppose the foreign policy of the current administration? Does "patriotism" mean loving your country or loving the specific policy of the current administration? If you feel the policy of the administration is damaging to the country you love, should you just shut up and put on a "Sodamn Insane" T-shirt?
I guess my question is, is there any military action the administration could undertake that the public would be allowed to have reservations about? If the answer is "no," that scares the hell out of me.
Ari Fleischer warned us over a year ago to "watch what we say." I guess that's coming home to roost.
Bush said, "You're either with us or you're against us." Who knew he was talking about the American people.
I agree with Moneypenny that it's insulting that people opposed to the war have to constantly emphasize that they "support the troops," as though "supporting the troops" was some sort of Stalinist loyalty oath. If it's mandatory to support the troops, if you have no choice, then what the heck does "support" mean?
That said, I "support the troops" in that I fervently hope every one of them comes home safe as quickly as possible. I also hope they do their jobs well with as few casualties as possible. I hope this not because I agree with the policy that put them there, but because I know that a botched war in Iraq will be even worse for America than a "successful" one. The longer this goes on, the longer American tanks in Baghdad are shown on al-Jazeera in a split-screen with Israeli tanks in Gaza, the worse it will be for us. We have to end this quickly and cleanly, or bin Laden will look like a prophet, not the madman he obviously is.
The troops been put in a tough spot, and my thoughts are with them as they attempt to deal with it as best they can. I don't think it's overstatement to say that America's future is riding on their success, just not in the sense the administration wants you to believe. They're not saving us from the Iraqis. They need to somehow save us from ourselves.
[Mar 26, 21:23]Andy You're right Luke. You don't have a job. You have every right to be angry at the country who did this to you.
[Mar 26, 21:34]Luke [e-mail] Hmm...last I knew I went to a certain place to *work* on a regular basis, and received a regular paycheck because of that *work*.
I guess I must be confused about what a job is, huh? And that somehow the economy and foreign policy are one in the same. What was I thinking?!
I find it interesting that total strangers who seemingly don't really have any reason to be here feel the need to post such childish remarks.
[Mar 26, 21:38]Luke [e-mail] BTW, Mark, I don't have a problem with you posting your opinions here. I don't agree with most of them, and I find it a bit strange that you post here, but nevertheless, you're free to do so. The "trolls" are the people who come here to do nothing but cause trouble.
[Mar 26, 23:13]Andy Right, I'm sorry. There is only room for your own bigoted view on here or views that you approve of.
And I was just quoting what your webpage said. "I used to work at The Journal Times doing web design when not in school - right now I'm looking for a job." You used to work somewhere and you no longer work there. You are looking for a job. Sounds like unemployment to me.
[Mar 26, 23:16]Luke [e-mail] Tell that to my paycheck!
[Mar 26, 23:22]anonymous Considering that the Oscars were being broadcast to the troops, I thought Michael Moore's speech was tactless and inconsiderate. While I find Michael Moore talented, not only are his movies also sometimes "ficticious," but "fictition" isn't even a word. :)
[Mar 26, 23:25]anonymous My paycheck and I aren't on speaking terms. :)
[Mar 26, 23:30]Andy What's the point in having comments if you disregard all respect for what other people write here? We don't all have to agree with what you say (and obviously many of these people who aren't your friends - don't). But you should respect their opinions anyway - not try and rebuke everything anyone says. Different people have different opinions and your insulting them isn't going to change that. 'nough said.
[Mar 26, 23:42]Luke [e-mail] Andy, nobody said you had to agree with me. It's obvious you don't. But just as you are entitled (by me, I might add) to rebuke my opinions, I'm entitled to rebuke yours. Nobody is forcing you to read this page, nor is anyone forcing you to post comments to it.
As far as "insulting" goes, you shouldn't be one to talk. I'm not sure how calling my view "bigoted" is anything *but* insulting. The same goes for implying that I'm angry at my country because of the current job market. Such comments are rude and insulting, yet I've given you the benefit of the doubt and let them stand.
Want to disagree with me in a civil manner? Go right ahead. But if your objective is to simply insult and cause trouble, just leave. I don't need that, nor do any of the other people who come here to discuss things.